Power software

Re: Power software

Postby Ewan » 17 Aug 2015 13:47

Golden Cheetah: Takes a bit of getting used to, but really excellent IMO. If I were a cyclist I'd use this exclusively... it has everything that training peaks offers (PMC etc) and more (better CP chart, workout comparison tool, aerolab etc), however it is worse than rubbish when it comes to swim and run data (it refuses to acknowledge swimming even exists) and so it isn't really an option for triathlon.

Training Peaks (premium): Good, but the cycling metrics just aren't as good as in GC. For instance you can't view sessions side by side by side to compare different TT efforts, and the CP chart only gives you data for 3hr, 90min, 60min 30min, 20min etc. whereas GC has time set as a continuous variable so you can view your CP for 23:45 or whatever you want. The only chart that TP has that I miss in GC is the "power profile chart" although you could approximate it by creating a weekly CP5/20/60 chart in GC. I only use Training Peaks for 2 reasons... 1 is to connect with my coach, and the 2nd is that it handles swim and run data well, meaning that my PMC in TP is roughly accurate.

Strava: Facebook for sport. Nice user interface but not useful for any serious analysis, but it is useful for stealing other peoples data if you want to know how someone beat you in a TT, or for comparing your progress over particular segments (in my case the climbs I use for hill reps etc.), or for finding new routes.

WKO: I hope it will fill the gap between GC and TP, however Ian has had problems with it* and I just paid for another year of TP premium so I won't be trying it out any time soon.

*btw Ian, did alex simmons response help you out at all?
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Re: Power software

Postby IanM » 17 Aug 2015 15:55

Ewan wrote:WKO: I hope it will fill the gap between GC and TP, however Ian has had problems with it* and I just paid for another year of TP premium so I won't be trying it out any time soon.

*btw Ian, did alex simmons response help you out at all?


Ah yes, I forgot to respond to that. It potentially answers one of my questions, but still doesn't cover why it apparently ignores what are essentially FTP performance efforts in modelling mFTP.

Useful feedback on TP vs GC btw - I'll stick with what I'm using then.
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Re: Power software

Postby IanM » 17 Aug 2015 15:59

Ewan wrote:Golden Cheetah: Takes a bit of getting used to, but really excellent IMO. If I were a cyclist I'd use this exclusively... it has everything that training peaks offers (PMC etc) and more (better CP chart, workout comparison tool, aerolab etc), however it is worse than rubbish when it comes to swim and run data (it refuses to acknowledge swimming even exists) and so it isn't really an option for triathlon.


You might want to install the latest GC beta (after backing up your data) - it seems to now acknowledge running and swimming - there are metrics for both of them.
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Re: Power software

Postby Ewan » 17 Aug 2015 16:19

Good tip.

The ability to work offline is another plus for GC. All the others I use are Web based which is fine most of the time, but is annoying because the WiFi card in my computer has broken and therefore need an ethernet connection to get online.

However, I have been known to double check power numbers in the car immediately pre TTs, so it can be useful.

One thing that REALLY bugs me is that garmin express refuses to retrieve files from my garmin unless I'm online. There is absolutely no reason for it to do this since it also stores the. fit files on my computer. Stupid garmin.

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Re: Power software

Postby IanM » 19 Aug 2015 20:37

The new 3.2 release of Golden Cheetah (out of beta as of yesterday) is very very good. Loads of new charts (quite a few of them Vector related), lots of improvements in features and functionality, and swim and run tracking now supported. Performance wise it's Ferrari vs Moped compared to WKO4.

The live W' prime tracking in workout mode will probably tempt me into trying that mode for the first time soon.

FTP estimation based on rolling 60 day data too (similar to the concept of WKO4's mFTP). At this point I make no comment about the perceived accuracy though ;)
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Re: Power software

Postby Ewan » 20 Aug 2015 16:20

IanM wrote:The new 3.2 release of Golden Cheetah (out of beta as of yesterday) is very very good. Loads of new charts (quite a few of them Vector related), lots of improvements in features and functionality, and swim and run tracking now supported. Performance wise it's Ferrari vs Moped compared to WKO4.

The live W' prime tracking in workout mode will probably tempt me into trying that mode for the first time soon.

FTP estimation based on rolling 60 day data too (similar to the concept of WKO4's mFTP). At this point I make no comment about the perceived accuracy though ;)


Updated and maybe... I got an error message when it tried to convert all my swim.fit files into whatever format GC uses (JSON?). Also, while it recognises my runs, it fails to compute a TSS for them (TP uses HR TSS) so they stil aren't displayed on the PMC which renders it sort of useless. Undoubtedly I'm doing something wrong but it's not seamless yet.

Also no TSS on bike if no power meter, so since my vectors are broken none of my recent rides show up on the PMC either...
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Re: Power software

Postby IanM » 20 Aug 2015 16:27

Ewan wrote:
IanM wrote:The new 3.2 release of Golden Cheetah (out of beta as of yesterday) is very very good. Loads of new charts (quite a few of them Vector related), lots of improvements in features and functionality, and swim and run tracking now supported. Performance wise it's Ferrari vs Moped compared to WKO4.

The live W' prime tracking in workout mode will probably tempt me into trying that mode for the first time soon.

FTP estimation based on rolling 60 day data too (similar to the concept of WKO4's mFTP). At this point I make no comment about the perceived accuracy though ;)


Updated and maybe... I got an error message when it tried to convert all my swim.fit files into whatever format GC uses (JSON?). Also, while it recognises my runs, it fails to compute a TSS for them (TP uses HR TSS) so they stil aren't displayed on the PMC which renders it sort of useless. Undoubtedly I'm doing something wrong but it's not seamless yet.

Also no TSS on bike if no power meter, so since my vectors are broken none of my recent rides show up on the PMC either...


I think you can get it to compute a TSS value for you for bike sessions without PM. Personally I'm used to doing it myself - Details -> Metric -> TSS - shows up in the PMC then.

As for running/swimming - you could put something in the google group for GC? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum ... etah-users
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Re: Power software

Postby Ewan » 20 Aug 2015 16:45

Not into the idea of manual TSS entry for every activity... especially when TP does it automatically using whatever data is available (power/HR/Pace etc.)

GC 3.2 can apparently estimate power data for rides without a power meter, and this can then be used to calculate TSS. Presumably the algorithm is similar to strava's estimated power which is bollocks... however while they are utterly pointless for estimating 'real time' power, they can be ok when used to calculate average power, which in turn would mean that the TSS isn't a million miles out.
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Re: Power software

Postby IanM » 20 Aug 2015 16:58

Ewan wrote:Not into the idea of manual TSS entry for every activity... especially when TP does it automatically using whatever data is available (power/HR/Pace etc.)

GC 3.2 can apparently estimate power data for rides without a power meter, and this can then be used to calculate TSS. Presumably the algorithm is similar to strava's estimated power which is bollocks... however while they are utterly pointless for estimating 'real time' power, they can be ok when used to calculate average power, which in turn would mean that the TSS isn't a million miles out.


Just had a look. Select the activity, then go to Edit -> Estimate Power Values. Takes a second. Tried it with a ride I estimated TSS for and it was within 4 points of my estimate. Power values look reasonable compared to Strava's. I could strip power out of one of my sessions and run the estimate to see how close it is, but I agree with you - it's not about estimating power at one given point for a ride without a PM, rather the TSS to keep the PMC up to date.
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Re: Power software

Postby Ewan » 20 Aug 2015 17:00

Actually using estimated power to calculate TSS gives the following results on my previous 2 rides

11 Aug: estimated AP = 222w, estimated NP = 250w, GC estimated TSS = 71, TP HR-TSS = 67.1
I'd guess at AP being a bit low here, but the looks NP about right... this was supposed to be 45minutes in Z4. I paced myself on HR and probably was a little below what I'd have done if I'd had power. Difficult to say for sure because of a few traffic light stops etc.

16th Aug: estimated AP = 200w, estimated NP = 242w, GC estimated TSS = 173, TP HR-TSS = 157
Again not too bad. This was supposed to be 3x40min @ Z4, again paced of HR, however it was a hilly course so difficult to judge. AP/NP probably not a million miles out.

GC's estimated power overestimates TSS compared to TP, but the difference is pretty marginal. Not too bad really
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